The Iranian revolution 30 years: An Interview with Khomeini

31-year commemoration of the Islamic revolution of Iran. Memorial celebration of the Islamic Revolution of Iran began to be held from February 1 until February 11. Revolution's central figures are Imam Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.
What and how Khomeini's thoughts, we present an interview TIME Middle East Bureau Chief Bruce van Voorst with Khomeini.

Bruce van Voorst: Anti-American feelings in Iran are intense. Americans, in turn, are angry with Iran. How do you assess prospects for bilateral relations after the resolution—whatever form it might take—of the current crisis?

Khomeini: Iranian feelings are not against the American people, but against the American Government. When they refer to America in their slogans and denunciations, they mean the U.S. Government, not the U.S. people. I have received reports about large-scale, Administration-orchestrated anti-Iranian propaganda in the U.S. The Zionists especially are doing all they can to poison U.S. public opinion against Iran. As a result, there may be ill feelings toward Iran in the U.S. as reported. But if the facts penetrate the Zionist-imperialist propaganda screen, if we succeed in explaining the truth to the American citizenry through the mass media, then the Americans will most probably have a change of heart about us and reciprocate our amicable attitude. But we are under no illusion that the U.S. Government might change its hostile attitude. The U.S. Government has lost great interests in Iran. Still worse, the Administration has lost its political prestige in other countries as well.


We have been screaming for justice, for having our grievances redressed. The U.S. Government placed the Shah on the throne—that is, the Allies appointed him [in 1941] after ousting his father Reza Khan [who was] a British stooge. The U.S. Government consistently helped him stay in power in the face of our people's opposition to him. The Shah squandered all our resources—our national dignity, our natural assets, the talents of our youths and everything else we had. Obviously, Iranians cannot have a good view of the U.S. Government. And recently our people discovered that the Administration had turned its so-called embassy into a base for espionage and conspiracy against Iran. Spies were operating there under the pretext of being embassy personnel. Now that our people know this fact, they consider the Administration their No. 1 enemy.

In our view, the American people are not to blame for their Government's behavior in Iran. Americans should recognize the fact that the Administration has wronged not only us, but them as well. It has deprived us of everything through its lackey, the Shah. And it has placed the U.S. citizenry's honor in jeopardy. Because of U.S. Government behavior, Eastern peoples may now develop a pessimistic view of the American nation. The Americans should take this fact into consideration. Carter's continued presidency is a danger for America. It poses a threat to American national honor. If the U.S. Government —through military intervention, economic blockade, bully tactics and similar actions—succeeds in depriving us of justice, then the crisis will never be resolved, it will always rankle in the mind of our people. The American people should not allow Carter to follow this course because, gradually, Iranians will suspect that the U.S. people share Carter's ill will toward Iran. Then, enmity might set in between the two peoples.

Another option is for the U.S. Government to admit its misdeeds in Iran. These are numerous. Allowing a murderer to enter the U.S. is one of them. Still worse is the U.S. Government's imposition of a murderer as ruler of Iran. When Carter became President, he continued the policies of his predecessors —that is, he tried to perpetuate the rule of the criminal Shah and plunder Iran. When our nation rose against Pahlavi tyranny, Carter did all he could to keep him in power. He failed.

Our people's hatred for the Shah was too obvious for Carter not to notice. But still, in blatant disregard of the Iranian nation's feelings, Carter offered the deposed Shah refuge in the U.S. Not even the American people, I think, believe Carter's claim that he allowed the Shah to enter America on humanitarian grounds. Humanitarian considerations do not enter the American Government's thinking at all. Washington is prepared to do anything, kill 200,000 people in an atomic raid, in order to gain some profit. No one can believe these officials were humanistically motivated in giving the Shah an entry visa. In a sense, they have abducted the deposed tyrant to make sure he will not divulge their secrets. If we try him, all the facts the U.S. Government wants to cover up will surface. The whole world will know who has aided the Shah in his crimes.

Of course, once the American people discover what their President has done, they will not vote for him any more. In our view, all Carter is interested in is a second term in the White House, and he is prepared to do anything, even to sacrifice American national honor, in order to achieve his goal. We cannot believe the U.S. Government's claims to humanitarian motives. Is the Shah alone a human being? Aren't 35 million Iranians human beings? Weren't the Vietnamese human beings? We clearly see what crimes are committed now in southern Lebanon ly see what crimes are committed now in southern Lebanon with Carter's approval.

For us, [the resolution of the crisis] means the extradition of the deposed Shah to Iran and measures to compensate Iran for damages caused by his tyranny. There are, of course, damages that cannot be repaired. For instance, we have sustained about 100,000 fatalities tin the struggle against the Shah]. The labor and human talents wasted in pursuit of his harmful objectives cannot be retrieved. But we expect the repatriation of the wealth plundered from Iran.

The main point to bear in mind is that there is a new era. Iran today is not what it was under the Shah. A miracle has occurred. Under the previous regime, a single policeman could force all merchants in a huge bazaar to hoist flags to mark the Shah's birthday. These very people stood up against tanks and artillery with their bare hands. Even now, they wear burial shrouds, come here [to Qum] and declare their readiness for martyrdom. A nation thus transformed cannot be pushed around. Mr. Carter has not understood this transformation yet. He thinks a dictator can be imposed on the country again. But he must understand that Iranians will never put up with such actions. Carter must wake up.

And the Americans should vote Carter out of office. They should elect a suitable President. Then Iranians, if convinced that the U.S. Government does not intend to wrong them, will have normal relations with the U.S.—the kind of relations we have with other countries.

Bruce van Voorst: You have called the Shah a criminal, but you have not been specific. Could you give a rundown of what you feel his crimes were?


Khomeini: The crimes of the Shah are innumerable. Even a synopsis would be too long for me to present in a single session. In the last two years of the Shah's reign alone —when people rose to crush the imperial regime and establish an Islamic republic —this criminal killed more than 60,000 and maimed more than 100,000 of our people. During his reign, the Shah made us economically dependent on the U.S. and turned Iran into a bankrupt state. Our industry is dependent on the West. He has destroyed our agriculture. Politically, he toed the U.S. line and placed Iran in league with the oppressors and tyrants. The Iranian position in international forums during the reign of the Shah clearly demonstrates this fact. Even when the Shah, for fear of incurring the people's wrath, adopted apparently anti-U.S. positions, he would, behind the scenes, remain hand in hand with America. For instance, although he publicly supported the Palestinians, he gave oil to Israel, the enemy of Islam and Muslims. He fed Israel militarily—that is, he assisted Israel, this archaggressor, wholeheartedly. Militarily, the Shah made us thoroughly dependent on the U.S. [To perpetuate his monarchy] he gave our oil to the U.S. and used the proceeds to build military bases for America in Iran. Worst of all, he was determined to annihilate Islam and Muslims. By pushing our youth toward the West, he created a painful cultural dislocation. He brainwashed the people with Western propaganda. It takes gigantic efforts to liberate our society from the evil effects of his cultural treason.

Bruce van Voorst: How do you feel qualified to judge him? How can you be sure that your measures are truly in keeping with the law of Islam and the will of God? Does God ever speak to you or send you guidance?


Khomeini: What I said in response to the first question sums up the judgment of all Iranians. I have repeatedly stressed that I simply reflect the views of the Iranian people.

Bruce van Voorst: Doesn't the fact that virtually every government in the world condemns the seizure of the hostages raise doubts in your mind about your own position?


Khomeini: Most governments that have condemned Iran [for the embassy seizure] have done so under superpower pressure. We want to prove to the whole world that the superpowers can be defeated with the power of faith. We shall stand up against the U.S. Government with all our might. We fear no power.

Bruce van Voorst: You have objected to the West's efforts to impose its values on Iran. Why are you trying to impose Islamic values and Islamic justice on representatives of the West?

Khomeini: We definitely do not want to impose Islamic values on the West. Islam will never be imposed—neither on the West, nor on the East, nor on any particular individual or region. Islam is opposed to coercion. Islam stands for freedom in all its dimensions. It is up to the people them selves to accept or reject it.

Bruce van Voorst: Even if he wished to, the President could not legally hand the Shah over to Iran or to a third country with the intention of extraditing him to Iran. Do you expect Carter to violate the basic principles of his nation? Isn't that inconsistent with your moral and ethical goals?

Khomeini: Did the U.S. Government legally place Iranians under the Shah's machine-gun fire? And now, is it the same law that prevents the U.S. from extraditing the Shah? What kind of law is this? It permits the U.S. Government to exploit and colonize peoples all over the world for decades. But it does not allow the extradition of an individual who has staged great massacres in Iran. Can you call it law?

Bruce van Voorst: You talk so readily of the embassy as a "nest of spies." But there has been precious little evidence for this. Aren't you aware that it is the function of all diplomats to gather information about the country they are in, and this is considered legitimate? When there is evidence of espionage against diplomats, they are simply deported, not tried by the host country. If you objected to the activities, why didn't you just shut the embassy down?

Khomeini: There is a difference between gathering information and conducting espionage. Evidence so far collected proves that they ["the American spies"] had charted different conspiracies for different parts of Iran. They had plots for creating armed clashes in different regions. Is this how diplomats gather information? God willing, the Muslim students [holding the U.S. hostages] will reveal the details in the future. It is the government's job to close the embassy or allow it to function. I do not interfere in these affairs.

Bruce van Voorst: Are you aware how isolated you have made Iran? Even Islamic nations have condemned the hostage taking. You have pushed the U.S. out of Iran, but who will free you from pressures by the Soviet Union?

Khomeini: We have pushed the U.S. out of Iran in order to establish an Islamic government. We have not ousted the U.S. in order to replace it with the Soviet Union. Our people's slogans clearly demonstrate this fact. Throughout their struggle, our people would chant, "An Islamic republic—neither Eastern nor Western." If the Soviet Union should one day try to pressure us, we will deal with it with the same force that enabled us to oust the will deal with it with the same force that enabled us to oust the U.S.—the force of our faith. We trust in God and the boundless might of the people.

Bruce van Voorst: You must accept the fact that America will never surrender the Shah to you. If you doubt this, you do not understand America. Would you release the hostages if the United Nations agreed to investigate your grievances? At the same time, should all dictators in the world be investigated by the U.N.?

Khomeini: In fact, we understand America well. We know that we can resist it and defend our honor. We have proved that we can resist its great injustice—harboring the Shah. We shall overpower America. We shall defeat it in the whole region. The [departure of the] Shah from the U.S. will not solve the problem. An international organization should make serious efforts to convince the U.S. to extradite the Shah to Iran. This organization should return all the wealth the Shah has plundered to its rightful owners—the people of Iran. Such an organization should also try all dictators. We will not surrender to injustice. We will not compromise with the oppressors.

Bruce van Voorst: Why can you not mediate this dispute in a reasonable manner? You have turned down Ramsey Clark, U.N. Secretary-General Kurt Waldheim, the P.L.O., and barely listened to the papal representative. Don't you think these are honorable and serious individuals?

Khomeini: I have never said that these gentlemen are not honorable and serious. I have defended the Palestinians against Israel for more than 20 years. I used to point out the danger of Israel at a time when Israel and Palestine were unknown in Iran. We support the Palestinians' cause of justice against Israel, but a more significant issue is at stake now. I want to drive home to all peoples throughout the world the point that they should not try to mediate between the oppressor and the oppressed. Such mediation itself is a great injustice. We do not want any [would-be mediators] to commit this injustice. The right approach, under these circumstances, is to rush to the side of the oppressed and implacably attack the oppressor. It is for this reason that we rejected offers of mediation and will continue to do so. You may consider the mediation of your representatives between Israel and Palestine logical. We don't. The only logical course is defending Palestine. We approve those who strive for the international recognition of our just demands, but we shall never endorse oppressors, even if they act in our interest. It is among the eternally valid principles which we must always uphold.

Bruce van Voorst: If the hostage crisis is peacefully resolved, can you foresee a normalization of relations with the U.S., such as by the renewed sale of military spare parts and commercial ties on terms acceptable to Iran?

Khomeini: We will certainly reject any deal that harms the interest of Muslims. Otherwise, commercial ties and other exchanges, as long as they are in the interest of our nation, are agreeable to me. However, the government is responsible for signing such agreements, not I.

Bruce van Voorst: The economy has not revived. The poor in south Tehran are as poor as ever. The armed forces probably could not defend Iran against attack. There is no normal political activity. In light of this, is it not fair to say that the revolution has failed?

Khomeini: All these observations might be true. But the revolution has not failed. Indeed, the pillars of the revolution have been strengthened. It is a fact that our people have become accustomed to the revolution. They are all revolutionaries. They all welcome martyrdom. I declare, in all seriousness, that we can easily stand up against U.S. aggression. The U.S. may destroy us, but not our revolution. It is for this reason that I am confident of our victory. Listen to the people's slogans. For instance, AIRCRAFT CARRIERS IMPRESS NO ONE. CARTER DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT THE LOGIC OF MARTYRDOM. The U.S. Government has no idea what martyrdom is. In this spirit, we will solve all the problems of Iran. Although, I must point out, the damages we have sustained stem from more than 50 years of Pahlavi treason and will take at least 20 years to repair. Freedom and the Islamic republic have been established. But complete independence requires the dispossession of the East and the West, an objective we shall undoubtedly achieve.

Bruce van Voorst: Haven't you really lost a measure of control? The embassy takeover was allegedly undertaken without your knowledge or the support of the Revolutionary Council. Didn't the students take policymaking out of your hands? Do you really control the crowds?

Khomeini: Failure to understand Iranians leads to such mistakes in reading the situation. Iranians harbor profound enmity toward the U.S. Government because of the wrongs it has done them. We lead our people along the path to independence and liberation from U.S. domination. It is for this reason that our people have occupied the American nest of spies. The so-called embassy is certainly a nest of spies, and, in principle, what do we need the U.S. Government for? All Iranians are asking this question.

Bruce van Voorst: Sometimes you issue elamiehs ordering the people what to do, and then when you want to avoid responsibility, you reply you can do nothing, it is in the hands of the people or the students. Aren't you trying to have it both ways?

Khomeini: It is a fact that I, as Khomeini, express my views like all other people, comment on what should be done. But you should have no doubt that the hostages are in the hands of the students.

Bruce van Voorst: You have not studied seriously economics, international political relations. Your education is primarily theological. Doesn't this raise doubts in your mind that there may be factors in this equation you don't grasp?

Khomeini: We have discarded equations and social and political terms of reference so far used for assessing all the world's problems. We have built a new framework of values standing up for justice and fighting injustice. We will defend any upholder of justice and attack any perpetrator of injustice. You may name this value system whatever you like. We are laying the foundation of this value system, which, we hope, will one day replace—in the U.N., the Security Council, and other world bodies—the influence of the capitalists and the great powers that can now condemn out of hand anybody they want to. Yes, with your criteria, I understand nothing—and I am better off for it.

Bruce van Voorst: Have you ever been wrong about anything?

Khomeini: Only the Prophet Muhammad and other saints have been infallible. Everybody else makes mistakes. (rainbowdiplomacy.com/www.time.com)